...making Linux just a little more fun!
Sandra Davis [sandart3 at msn.com]
[[[ Sent, of course, as html mail. Sigh. -- Kat ]]]
Is Linux a web server such as Firefox? I have never used Linux, but I = have heard of it. Can you tell me why I would use Linux? I read some = about it on the site, but I would like to know why a personal computer = user would want to use this program.
Sandra Davis
Thomas Adam [thomas.adam22 at gmail.com]
2009/8/6 Sandra Davis <sandart3@msn.com>:
> Is Linux a web server such as Firefox? I have never used Linux, but I have
No -- and neither is Firefox a webserver. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux
I am not being a cop out here, it's just that to answer that question would mean me to write a major thesis as a reply; it doesn't happen often, and thankfully in this case others have done it for me,
> heard of it. Can you tell me why I would use Linux? I read some about it
Because you want something different from MS-Windows? You want to program in languages other than C# and VB? Because you want something *reliable*?
-- Thomas Adam
Deividson Okopnik [deivid.okop at gmail.com]
There are a few points to be made before explaining to you "why a personal computer user would want to use this program":
1 - Firefox is a browser (a program someone uses to navigate the internet), not a web server
2 - Linux is an operational system - just like Windows, which is what you probably use on your computer.
And the points on why to use Linux, theres quite a few, but some of the most important ones are:
1 - Linux is free, windows costs almost 200$ for a very limited version (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-vista/compare-editions/default.aspx)
2 - Linux is just as easy to use as windows (check out www.ubuntu.com)
3 - Linux has got free software alternatives for everything you need.
I guess this is it for now, drop a new message if you need anything else.
Lew Pitcher [lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca]
Hello, Sandra
On August 6, 2009 13:00:22 Sandra Davis wrote:
> Is Linux a web server such as Firefox?
Sorry, but no
a) Linux is not a webserver, but then again
b) Firefox is not a webserver either.
Linux is the core of many operating systems that compete with Microsoft's WIndows and Apple's Mac OS (to name a couple). What Linux does is provide a modern, stable, secure, small framework on which "applications" (programs) can run.
It is free (in cost, and in other ways), and runs on just about anything. Did you have to upgrade your PC when you moved from Windows 98 to Windows XP, or from WIndows XP to Windows Vista? You wouldn't have to have spent that money to change your computer, and would still have had a great system, had you used Linux instead.
Have you had a computer virus or spyware/adware program on your computer? Do you run virus scanners and/or spyware removal tools on your system? You don't have to do that with a Linux-based system; there are no viruses on Linux systems. No spyware either. And virus/spyware scanners don't slow down the system the way they do on Windows.
> I have never used Linux,
Likely, you have. You just don't know it. Do you have a Linksys or small Cisco router? Do you use a TomTom or Garvin GPS unit? A Samsung, SanDisk or Archos portable media player? A Motorola, NEC DoCoMo, Panasonic DoCoMo, Grundig or Palm Pre cellphone? These /all/ use Linux as their base operating system.
> but I have heard of it. Can you tell me why I would use Linux?
* Because you want to run software and applications that are Linux or Unix compatable
* Because you don't want to lose your data or programs to viruses and spyware.
* Because you don't want the other users of your computer to be able to change /your/ data or programs.
* Because you don't want to buy new hardware every time a new version of the Operating system comes out
* Because you don't want to buy a new version of the Operating System whenever the manufacturer wants you to
* Because you want to be able to use the same programs and data on various platforms, other than x86 PCs
> I read some about it on the site, but I would like to know why a personal > computer user would want to use this program.
See above.
HTH
-- Lew Pitcher
Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]
Quoting Lew Pitcher (lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca):
> Likely, you have. You just don't know it. Do you have a Linksys or > small Cisco router? Do you use a TomTom or Garvin GPS unit? A Samsung, > SanDisk or Archos portable media player? A Motorola, NEC DoCoMo, > Panasonic DoCoMo, Grundig or Palm Pre cellphone? These /all/ use Linux > as their base operating system.
Also, a TiVo, or a Motorola RAZRv6 or later cellular telephone. And so on, as Linux is nearly ubiquitous, these days, in embedded devices. Also, possibly the majority (or at least a large fraction) of the world's Web sites and DNS servers run on Linux. If Sandra's ever used the World Wide Web or e-mail, then it's highly likely that she's used Linux.
It would be very entertaining to try to figure out how you could lead a modern life while never using any service provided by a Linux machine: the experience of living that life, on the other hand, would be rather hellish, I imagine.
-- Cheers, Rick Moen This .signature intentionally left blank. rick@linuxmafia.com
Sam Bisbee [sbisbee at computervip.com]
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 11:03:36AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Lew Pitcher (lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca): > > > Likely, you have. You just don't know it. Do you have a Linksys or > > small Cisco router? Do you use a TomTom or Garvin GPS unit? A Samsung, > > SanDisk or Archos portable media player? A Motorola, NEC DoCoMo, > > Panasonic DoCoMo, Grundig or Palm Pre cellphone? These /all/ use Linux > > as their base operating system. > > Also, a TiVo, or a Motorola RAZRv6 or later cellular telephone. And so > on, as Linux is nearly ubiquitous, these days, in embedded devices. > Also, possibly the majority (or at least a large fraction) of the > world's Web sites and DNS servers run on Linux. If Sandra's ever used > the World Wide Web or e-mail, then it's highly likely that she's used > Linux. > > It would be very entertaining to try to figure out how you could lead a > modern life while never using any service provided by a Linux machine: > the experience of living that life, on the other hand, would be rather > hellish, I imagine.
My favorite was when I was on a plane (JetBlue?) and they had to restart the in-flight entertainment system. On reboot who should appear on the screen but Tux! If memory serves they were using Knoppix. There was a mini-cheer on the plane from my friend and I. People were rather confused by our joy at the TV system crapping out.
Anyways, I felt much safer knowing that the plane was being piloted by our black/white/orange friend. Especially when compared to my airport experience on the same trip when the TV monitors in the terminal popped up a Windows error over the national weather map and arrival/departure statuses. Another win for Logan.
-- Sam Bisbee
X [crileyjm at gmail.com]
Greetings everyone: This is my first time mailing. But I have been learning from you all for about 4 years. But to the point ...
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 02:23:10PM -0400, Sam Bisbee wrote:
> My favorite was when I was on a plane (JetBlue?) and they had to restart the > in-flight entertainment system. On reboot who should appear on the screen but > Tux! If memory serves they were using Knoppix. There was a mini-cheer on the > plane from my friend and I. People were rather confused by our joy at the TV > system crapping out.
The fact that the reboot happened didn't worry you? A linux crash is never fun for me.
> Anyways, I felt much safer knowing that the plane was being piloted by our > black/white/orange friend. Especially when compared to my airport experience on > the same trip when the TV monitors in the terminal popped up a Windows error > over the national weather map and arrival/departure statuses. Another win for > Logan.
Who is the black/white/orange friend? BSD?
Sam Bisbee [sbisbee at computervip.com]
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 02:09:39PM -0500, X wrote:
> Who is the black/white/orange friend? BSD?
Whoops, s/orange/yellow/
We'll just assume that there was something orange in my sight range.
-- Sam Bisbee
Jimmy O'Regan [joregan at gmail.com]
2009/8/6 Sam Bisbee <sbisbee@computervip.com>:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 02:09:39PM -0500, X wrote: >> Who is the black/white/orange friend? BSD? > > Whoops, s/orange/yellow/ > > We'll just assume that there was something orange in my sight range.
Eh, that beak comes in a range of hues 
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 01:00:22PM -0400, Sandra Davis wrote:
> Is Linux a web server such as Firefox? I have never used Linux, but I have > heard of it. Can you tell me why I would use Linux? I read some about it on > the site, but I would like to know why a personal computer user would want to > use this program.
(Interesting that you should mention Firefox, Sandra. It's a piece of open source software - something that is true of Linux as well - and everything that I'm about to say applies to it as well. I hope that you're using Firefox and enjoying it; at the moment - and I'm making a guess based on your question - you may have more of a moral right to enjoy it than any other piece of software on your system. Please read further to see why I say that.)
A number of people here have mentioned quite a list of reasons, most of them technical ones. However, there's also a strong moral perspective to your "why" - and to some people, it's the main reason. That's what I want to explore here.
One thing that's often cited by Linux enthusiasts is "Linux is free, Windows costs lots of money." That's true, from some perspective... but let's face it: very, very few people actually go through the physical act of hauling out their wallet and paying for a box of software that says "Windows Operating System" or whatever - almost everyone buys their computer with Windows already installed, pays the total at the counter, and never realizes that a large part of the price tag is for that operating system. It's a hidden cost.
By the same token, when it's time to upgrade their computer, they pay A Computer Geek to come do something magical to their box; he sticks a marker-labelled CD into their CD-ROM drive, mutters some incantations, waves a dead chicken over the CPU, and - ready for this? - charges them $50 or whatever for his time.
Did he actually install a licensed copy of Windows on that machine? No, because that would cost $200 or so plus his time, and no average computer user would ever pay that for some weird geek magic. So, he installs a hacked copy of Windows on your machine, and you go on, no wiser for the experience.
BUT:
In the first place, you were ripped off - your money sneaked out of your wallet without your knowledge - when you bought that first copy of Windows. In the second place, you are - to use a bit of legal terminology - a receiver of stolen goods, and are criminally liable, since ignorance of the law is not accepted as a valid excuse. Pretty outrageous, both of those; you're either a victim or a criminal, with little or no power to make a decision at the critical moment.
Now, chances are that you will never be prosecuted on that charge (and you will certainly never recover that original hidden cost)... but people who are aware of the situation - as you now are - must make an ethical decision: what is the right thing to do in this situation? What's the right thing to do from here forward?
1) You could just say "Hell, I don't care; everybody does it" and let it go at that - but it is illegal, and the ethics of it are highly questionable.
2) You could say "Fine, then I'll pay for my copy of Windows", call Microsoft, and take care of it. It's only a couple hundred bucks, right? Oh, right... there's also a few hundred for MS Office, and Photoshop, and a few other pieces of software... that's only a few thousand dollars - no big deal, right?
Obviously, for most people, that's not a viable solution: they don't have that kind of money to just casually and suddenly throw at something as nebulous as an "operating system" or "software" - and particularly one that allows viruses, worms, crashes, and so on. Would you pay good money for, say, a car that worked as poorly as that? Or would you take it back and scream at the dealer for a refund?
3) ...or you could install Linux (there are other free operating systems out there - just to make the issue a bit more confusing - but none of them are nearly as well developed for the average computer user as Linux.) It's free - really and truly free in every useful sense - and you're legally and morally clean and clear. All updates are, again, free and legal. So is pretty much all the software.
There are many benefits - too many to list, although some of the folks in this discussion have mentioned a number - that accrue from the above basis. But that, to me, is the start of it all. I like to keep that slate clean - and Linux dovetails perfectly with that part of my philosophy.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 02:09:39PM -0500, X wrote:
> Greetings everyone: > This is my first time mailing. But I have been learning from you all > for about 4 years. But to the point ...
Welcome, X!
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 02:23:10PM -0400, Sam Bisbee wrote: > > My favorite was when I was on a plane (JetBlue?) and they had to restart the > > in-flight entertainment system. On reboot who should appear on the screen but > > Tux! If memory serves they were using Knoppix. There was a mini-cheer on the > > plane from my friend and I. People were rather confused by our joy at the TV > > system crapping out. > > The fact that the reboot happened didn't worry you? A linux crash is > never fun for me.
I've had the same exact experience on JetBlue, and was immensely cheered by the appearance of Tux. The cause of the reboot was clear and apparent, though: the crew announced that they were "having problems with the entertainment system" (their trivia game app was stuck, as I recall) and rebooted it - the standard "solution" that everyone has learned over the years from using Windows machines - which just happens to be the most practical solution for a minor system on a plane that's full of complex technology.
So, no, there's no reason that a reboot of that system should bother anyone. It's perfectly appropriate.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
[Adding TAG back to the CC list]
Sandra, please reply to the list on any future follow-ups. All of us here contribute our time answering these questions in order to benefit the Linux community; turning the list discussion into a private conversation would prevent that from happening, as well as removing any reason or motivation for us to answer these questions for free.
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 09:11:00PM -0400, Sandra Davis wrote:
> Thank you for this information. However, I do the re-installing of my > computer myself. I am very computer literate. What I need to know is: > Is Linux compatible with Windows. I have Windows XP version 7. I also > use msn. So, if I install Linux, will it mess up what I already have? > One reason I am inquiring about Linux is that Microsoft and MSN often > have lots of frustrating problems. So, does Linux require Windows to > run?
Perhaps I can expand your definition of computer literacy. Let me go
over the same ground that was covered earlier by Lew Pitcher among
others: Windows is an operating system. So is Linux. Linux is usually
used as a replacement, or a superior alternative to Windows; it does not
in any way depend on Windows.
Will it "mess up" what you already have? Let me put it this way: I would expect a better-phrased question from someone who is computer-literate. Now, if you were to ask "will erasing Windows from my machine and replacing it with Linux let me keep all my old software, my settings, and the quirks that I'm used to from Windows and its software", the question would answer itself. As it is - if you have an old Buick and a bunch of parts for it in your garage, and you replace that old clunker with a brand-new Porsche, then those Buick parts would become useless to you. Would that make those parts "messed up"? Perhaps you can enlighten us.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *
X [crileyjm at gmail.com]
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:30:30PM -0500, Ben Okopnik wrote:
> > Welcome, X! >Correction taken
. I am loving Mutt. Don't like Sup the way it is now.
> > I've had the same exact experience on JetBlue, and was immensely cheered > by the appearance of Tux. The cause of the reboot was clear and > apparent, though: the crew announced that they were "having problems > with the entertainment system" (their trivia game app was stuck, as I > recall) and rebooted it - the standard "solution" that everyone has > learned over the years from using Windows machines - which just happens > to be the most practical solution for a minor system on a plane that's > full of complex technology. > > So, no, there's no reason that a reboot of that system should bother > anyone. It's perfectly appropriate. > >Guess it's time to write a "Things to do b4 I can't". I have yet to go on a plane.
BTW, what is the black/white/yellow friend?
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 11:25:21PM -0500, X wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 07:30:30PM -0500, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > Welcome, X! > > > Correction takenOh, no correction implied - it really was just a welcome note. What's a "Sup"?
> Guess it's time to write a "Things to do b4 I can't". I have yet to go > on a plane. > > BTW, what is the black/white/yellow friend?
Tux - e.g., http://linuxgazette.net/gx/tux_86x95_indexed.png - is the Linux mascot. Lots of logos, mascots, etc. are about representing the speed, power, size, etc. of the entity that they represent; the Linux community sorta prides itself on Tux not being representative of much of anything at all. A "hack the culture" sort of thing... although I might be mistaken.
Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me they have never seen a angry penguin charging at them in excess of 100mph. They'd be a lot more careful about what they say if they had. -- Linus Torvalds
Also, http://www.linux.org/info/penguin.html ("Why a Penguin?")
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *
Carey Riley [crileyjm at gmail.com]
On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 10:03:31AM -0500, Ben Okopnik wrote:
> > Oh, no correction implied - it really was just a welcome note. What's a > "Sup"? >It's a new mail client in the works to "compete with" Mutt (http://sup.rubforge.org/)
It is coming along very well. Who knows? Someone might put caca or aalib in it too.
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 10:51:44AM -0500, Carey Riley wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 10:03:31AM -0500, Ben Okopnik wrote: > > > > Oh, no correction implied - it really was just a welcome note. What's a > > "Sup"? > > > It's a new mail client in the works to "compete with" Mutt > (http://sup.rubforge.org/)
Presumably, that's http://sup.rubyforge.org/ (missing "y"). Sounds interesting, although it would take something amazing - y'know, something that does everything Mutt does PLUS serves me nicely chilled beer, balances my accounts, washes the dishes, and can also be used as a crunchy salad topping - to make me switch away from Mutt.
I don't do religious wars, but Mutt's pretty much a perfect fit for what I need in a mail client (and has hooks to let me add any external stuff I might want.) There are lots of other pieces of software that I'd like to see improved, but that one, as far as I'm concerned, is a Solved Issue.
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *
Kapil Hari Paranjape [kapil at imsc.res.in]
Hello,
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009, Ben Okopnik wrote:
> Presumably, that's http://sup.rubyforge.org/ (missing "y"). Sounds > interesting, although it would take something amazing - y'know, > something that does everything Mutt does PLUS serves me nicely chilled > beer, balances my accounts, washes the dishes, and can also be used as a > crunchy salad topping - to make me switch away from Mutt.
Same here!
All the same, it must be said that what is described there is enticing. The basic idea seems to be to automatically index incoming mail and thus provide the following kinds of views of mail selected from possibly different folders:
1. Mails associated with a particular thread.
2. Mails grouped by tags.
3. Mails selected by a search key.
and so on ...
This is like Mutt's "limited" view of mails in a particular folder but across folders and with a (presumably) faster search.
This would indeed be a neat thing to add to Mutt. One drawback is currently mentioned in the write-up about 'sup' on its home page. Losing the index is quite bad. Similarly, editing mail folders using a different program screws things up.
Regards,
Kapil. --
Carey Riley [crileyjm at gmail.com]
@B. Okopnik
I guess you use Mutt-ng?
Carey Riley [crileyjm at gmail.com]
On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 07:12:22AM +0530, Kapil Hari Paranjape wrote:
> This would indeed be a neat thing to add to Mutt. One drawback > is currently mentioned in the write-up about 'sup' on its home > page. Losing the index is quite bad. Similarly, editing mail folders > using a different program screws things up. > > Regards, > > Kapil.
They have an option to sync in that case. Also an option on setting up that account that sets it as ?unusual? (don't remember); for accounts being used by other clients.
Ben Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 10:30:39PM -0500, Carey Riley wrote:
> @B. Okopnik > I guess you use Mutt-ng?
Honestly, I don't pay that much attention - as long as it looks right
and does all the things I want it to, I'm happy to leave it to the
Ubuntu maintainers to decide which branch/version/flavor/color of the
week to install as a default. If I feed "vi" the magic ':r!mutt -v'
incantation, I get:
Mutt 1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Copyright (C) 1996-2008 Michael R. Elkins and others. Mutt comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `mutt -vv'. Mutt is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; type `mutt -vv' for details. System: Linux 2.6.28-14-generic (i686) ncurses: ncurses 5.7.20090207 (compiled with 5.7) libidn: 1.10 (compiled with 1.10) hcache backend: GDBM version 1.8.3. 10/15/2002 (built Nov 5 2008 02:36:47) Compile options: -DOMAIN +DEBUG -HOMESPOOL +USE_SETGID +USE_DOTLOCK +DL_STANDALONE +USE_FCNTL -USE_FLOCK +USE_POP +USE_IMAP +USE_SMTP +USE_GSS -USE_SSL_OPENSSL +USE_SSL_GNUTLS +USE_SASL +HAVE_GETADDRINFO +HAVE_REGCOMP -USE_GNU_REGEX +HAVE_COLOR +HAVE_START_COLOR +HAVE_TYPEAHEAD +HAVE_BKGDSET +HAVE_CURS_SET +HAVE_META +HAVE_RESIZETERM +CRYPT_BACKEND_CLASSIC_PGP +CRYPT_BACKEND_CLASSIC_SMIME -CRYPT_BACKEND_GPGME -EXACT_ADDRESS -SUN_ATTACHMENT +ENABLE_NLS -LOCALES_HACK +COMPRESSED +HAVE_WC_FUNCS +HAVE_LANGINFO_CODESET +HAVE_LANGINFO_YESEXPR +HAVE_ICONV -ICONV_NONTRANS +HAVE_LIBIDN +HAVE_GETSID +USE_HCACHE -ISPELL SENDMAIL="/usr/sbin/sendmail" MAILPATH="/var/mail" PKGDATADIR="/usr/share/mutt" SYSCONFDIR="/etc" EXECSHELL="/bin/sh" MIXMASTER="mixmaster" To contact the developers, please mail to <mutt-dev@mutt.org>. To report a bug, please visit http://bugs.mutt.org/. patch-1.5.13.cd.ifdef.2 patch-1.5.13.cd.purge_message.3.4 patch-1.5.13.nt+ab.xtitles.4 patch-1.5.4.vk.pgp_verbose_mime patch-1.5.6.dw.maildir-mtime.1 patch-1.5.8.hr.sensible_browser_position.3
-- * Ben Okopnik * Editor-in-Chief, Linux Gazette * http://LinuxGazette.NET *